DATE: Monday; December 3, 2001 TIME: Commenced: 1:10 p.m. Concluded: 1:59 p.m. LOCATION: 402 South Monroe Street 306-H House Office Building Tallahassee, Florida REPORTED BY: Laurie L. Gilbert Registered Professional Reporter Certified Court Reporter Certified Realtime Reporter Certified Merit Reporter Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 100 SALEM COURT TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301 850/878-2221 2 APPEARANCES: REPRESENTATIVE BRUCE KYLE, Chairman REPRESENTATIVE JOYCE CUSACK REPRESENTATIVE PAULA BONO DOCKERY REPRESENTATIVE RENE GARCIA REPRESENTATIVE JIM KALLINGER REPRESENTATIVE SUZANNE M. KOSMAS REPRESENTATIVE JERRY G. MELVIN REPRESENTATIVE STACY J. RITTER REPRESENTATIVE DENNIS A. ROSS * * * I N D E X PAGE Meeting Commenced 3 Meeting Concluded 51 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 52 * * * ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 3 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 (Representative Kallinger not present at 3 this time.) 4 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Okay. We're going to 5 go ahead and call the meeting to order at this 6 point. 7 Call the roll, please. 8 MS. HEFFNER: Representative Kyle. 9 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Here. 10 MS. HEFFNER: Cusack. 11 REPRESENTATIVE CUSACK: Here. 12 MS. HEFFNER: Dockery. 13 REPRESENTATIVE DOCKERY: Here. 14 MS. HEFFNER: Garcia. 15 REPRESENTATIVE GARCIA: Here. 16 MS. HEFFNER: Jennings. 17 Kallinger. 18 Kosmas. 19 Kravitz. 20 Lacasa. 21 Lee. 22 Melvin. 23 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: Here. 24 MS. HEFFNER: Ritter. 25 REPRESENTATIVE RITTER: Here. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 4 1 MS. HEFFNER: Ross. 2 REPRESENTATIVE ROSS: Here. 3 MS. HEFFNER: The roll's been called, 4 Mr. Chairman. 5 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Thank you. 6 I believe we have a quorum present. 7 I'd like to thank everybody for coming 8 today. And this is our first meeting alone for 9 Senate redistricting. 10 And what we're going to be doing today is 11 workshopping two separate Senate plans from 12 Representative Rubio and 13 Representative Wallace. And I'd like to thank 14 them both, and congratulate them both on being 15 the first to file House and -- and Senate 16 plans. 17 And I hope it's the first of many more 18 bills to come. 19 We encourage anybody who -- who wants to be 20 involved in this process, to file a bill. And 21 if you do file a bill, you need to file a 22 complete bill, a complete Congressional bill, 23 if you're going to do a Congressional -- a 24 Congressional redistricting map. And if you do 25 a House map, you need a House and Senate plan ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 5 1 complete as well. 2 And I would encourage you to do so. 3 I -- I would ask you not to be intimidated 4 by this task. I am by no means the most 5 computer literate person in the world, and it 6 didn't take me very long to figure out how to 7 use the FREDS program, and it is remarkably 8 easy. 9 When you've had a -- we've made sure all 10 the members have had access to the 11 FREDS program, as well as all universities and 12 public libraries have a copy, and -- for the 13 public to use. 14 And it's also available on-line for $20 for 15 a program for the -- for the private public who 16 wants to have a copy for their home. 17 In the packet, we have a lot of 18 information. We have information on -- on the 19 population and breakdowns for each plan, as 20 well as the elections, going back to '94. It's 21 only for informational purposes. 22 By no means would I read anything into it. 23 And as you know, much like the market, past 24 performance doesn't always mean a whole lot, 25 especially in elections. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 6 1 We also ask for members who haven't, you 2 can look at the transcripts from all the 3 meetings that we had throughout the state. I 4 went to almost all of them. They're very 5 informational, and you can look at them to see 6 what different areas thought of -- of the 7 current plans, and -- and where they wanted to 8 see their area go. 9 It's important to have an idea of what the 10 people in the state of Florida had in mind. 11 And at this point, I'm going to go ahead 12 and -- and ask Representative Rubio to present 13 his plan. 14 Once again, this is just a workshop, and I 15 hope we have many more plans to come, and -- 16 and hope everybody will be involved. 17 Representative Rubio, you are recognized to 18 explain your plan. 19 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: Thank you, 20 Mr. Chairman, and members. And I notice the 21 camera's not on, so I'm going to be brief. 22 The camera up there. Ha ha ha. 23 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Oh. If I could, for one 24 more moment, to -- we do have a stenographer 25 here today. So before you speak, if anyone -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 7 1 anyone from the public, or from the -- the 2 committee, if you would state your name prior 3 to speaking, for her advantage, she doesn't 4 know any of us, and I want to make sure that 5 the record's nice and clear. 6 We do have a tape, but I want to make sure 7 that the stenographer's record's clear as to 8 who's spoken here today. 9 Thank you. 10 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: Thank you, 11 Mr. Chairman, members. And I'm going to be 12 brief in my presentation, however. 13 I think that many of the questions that you 14 may have may begin to be answered by some of 15 the statistics that are offered to you in your 16 packets. 17 And I think that the -- the most important 18 thing that I could say about the plan before 19 you today is that it's intended to be a 20 constitutional starting point that presents us 21 with 40 contiguous districts, compact in 22 nature, for the most part, that -- that provide 23 as a constitutional starting point for the task 24 at hand before us. 25 And in terms of any particulars or ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 8 1 questions that you may have, I think a lot of 2 those will need to be answered by some of the 3 members that are before you today, and are of 4 interest to you. 5 I don't really have an extensive 6 presentation in terms of -- of -- of the -- the 7 general areas. I think that's probably best 8 left to -- to each of you to -- to look at the 9 map. And if you have any questions, obviously 10 I'd be more than happy to answer them. 11 But I do think this is a process that lends 12 itself to brevity. And -- and that really is 13 the extent of -- of the presentation. If any 14 of you have reviewed the plans, I'm obviously 15 open and willing to answer any questions you 16 may have that I may have the answers to. 17 CHAIRMAN KYLE: You're recognized for a 18 question, Representative Melvin. 19 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: You seem to have 20 most areas completely compact, with the 21 exception of the little squirrelly que one down 22 at the bottom east coast -- 23 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: Yes. 24 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: -- and the pretty 25 long one up there at the south of Jacksonville. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 9 1 Why were you not consistent in trying to 2 make them all compact, instead of making that 3 one really curlicued. 4 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: Well, 5 Representative Melvin, obviously I -- I think 6 you're referring to Miami-Dade County and 7 Broward on the map; is that correct? 8 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: Yes, sir. 9 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: Those areas are 10 areas of -- of high population concentration, 11 and, therefore, the districts there are 12 naturally going to be geographically smaller 13 than the other parts of the state. 14 And I think that's how that map reflects 15 it. There's a -- in your computer, you'll be 16 able to zoom in on it to make it larger to see 17 some of the particulars. 18 And -- and if you look at the drawing of 19 any map, not just the House plan, the Senate 20 plan, any plan, is going to be reflective of 21 population concentrations throughout the state. 22 And the least -- the less concentrated the 23 population is, the larger those little blocks 24 that you see up there are going to be 25 geographically speaking. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 10 1 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: But -- 2 Mr. Chairman -- 3 CHAIRMAN KYLE: You're recognized for a 4 follow-up. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: That still doesn't 6 answer the question -- 7 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: Yes. 8 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: -- as to why that 9 one district that you've got goes all the way 10 down through three, rather than it being 11 compact like all the rest. 12 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: Well, you know, the 13 interesting thing about this process, and I 14 joked about this with someone the other day, is 15 that, you know, beauty is in the eye of the 16 beholder. 17 There's probably about 150,000 different 18 ways to draw this plan and do it in a way 19 that's constitutional. And this is just one of 20 them. 21 And -- and certainly if -- if a particular 22 shape is troublesome to you, or to any of the 23 other members, my recommendation, as -- as I've 24 taken it upon myself, is to go on that system 25 that we've been given, and kind of draw ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 11 1 amendments to it, or your own plan. I mean, 2 I think that's an option that we have. 3 It's still December, it's still early. 4 And -- and I think those squiggly things 5 are kind of cute. 6 CHAIRMAN KYLE: And -- and -- and just so 7 everyone's clear, too, that's -- that's one of 8 the reasons we're workshopping this bill. I 9 hope we're going to have plenty of other bills 10 coming to the committee as well to -- to 11 consider. And this is kind of an opportunity 12 for all of us to learn how we're going to move 13 forward and -- and get a better understanding 14 of this process. 15 And as Representative Rubio stated, and if 16 you have any particular concerns, I would urge 17 you to file your own map, and -- and create 18 your own map, and -- and sit down and wade 19 through the process. It's not that difficult. 20 And if you have any problems with the 21 program, staff will be willing to work with 22 you, and help you, and give you any additional 23 training that you may need after the training 24 that's already been provided to all the 25 members. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 12 1 I know turnout at those weren't as -- as 2 good as we had hoped. But I would urge you all 3 to become actively involved. 4 Representative Cusack, you're recognized. 5 REPRESENTATIVE CUSACK: Thank you, 6 Mr. Chair. 7 I have a couple of questions. 8 First of all, what criteria did you use 9 for -- for drawing yours? I mean, did you 10 consider any -- the undercount as to the 11 census 2000 concern, or -- kindly explain -- 12 help me understand, if you would, the criteria 13 that you used to -- to actually draw this map. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: Well, as I said 15 earlier, the -- the -- the primary criteria 16 that we used in -- in drawing a plan is the 17 constitutional amendment, and the applicable 18 legal status or statutes -- legal opinions that 19 have been rendered over the years in terms of 20 compactness, in terms of trying to respect as 21 much as possible, to the extent possible, 22 communities of interest. 23 And -- and this plan is just the one way 24 that that could be accomplished in my opinion. 25 And there may be others. Obviously, perhaps ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 13 1 you might have a plan that looks different than 2 mine, but it's just as legal and just as 3 constitutional. 4 And -- and that's really the -- the beauty, 5 and really the art of this process, is that 6 it's not a science. It's an art. And -- and 7 there -- and there are very many different ways 8 to come probably to the same conclusion, or 9 different conclusions, but in a legal way. 10 And so we -- the -- the basic standard that 11 this takes into account, of course, is -- 12 you know, contiguous, that districts have a 13 minimum must be contiguous. 14 We tried to respect as much as possible 15 within, you know, reason, communities of 16 interest, and tried to respect as much as 17 possible compactness. 18 In some instances, that's more easily 19 attainable; and some other areas, it's not. 20 And this is just one effort at it. And -- 21 and I would imagine, there will be many others 22 that will look quite different than this one, 23 and perhaps even including the end product. 24 CHAIRMAN KYLE: And if I may, too, for all 25 of those of you who may have missed some of the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 14 1 legal requirements, which are our true guiding 2 principals, as well as the facts that the -- 3 what all the people across the state of Florida 4 told us at these redistricting members -- these 5 redistricting hearings is what their guiding 6 principals were for their area. 7 There's no -- there's a packet that's been 8 handed out to all of you all today for your 9 review again on some of the legal aspects of -- 10 of how we're restricted on what we need to do. 11 And so I urge you to look at that once again. 12 Representative Garcia, you're recognized. 13 REPRESENTATIVE GARCIA: Just a quick 14 question. 15 In reference to District 40 -- I know this 16 is a workshop, but can you explain a little bit 17 to me -- I mean, in reference to the other -- 18 the other districts themselves, that one seems 19 to take up a -- pretty much the western part of 20 Dade County, Monroe, and Collier County. 21 How did you -- how was that -- how did that 22 come about? 23 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: Well, I mean, 24 basically that area, District 40, covers some 25 areas in terms of geographic -- the compactness ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 15 1 in terms of the population density is not as 2 large as some of the other areas in southeast 3 Florida. 4 And that's just one way that District 40 5 can be drawn. I think there are others that -- 6 that others can look at and do it. That's just 7 one way. 8 It just reflects the fact that as you get 9 to the southern portion of the county, in 10 Dade County, and into Monroe County, the 11 density of population is not nearly as large. 12 And, therefore, in order to reach the 13 number of -- of electors that you need in that 14 district within the margins of deviations that 15 are allowable, under this plan -- under the 16 theory of this plan, you had to make it a 17 little bit larger geographically. 18 But like I said, when you -- those are just 19 numbers. You can draw District 40 practically 20 anywhere on the map that you'd like, and -- and 21 you probably will at some point. 22 So -- I mean, that's basically the theory 23 of it. 24 CHAIRMAN KYLE: I would note that the 25 deviation under your plan for -- for -- for ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 16 1 number 40's very small. 2 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: Mr. Chairman. 3 Representative Dockery. 4 Oh, I'm sorry. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: Go ahead and let 6 her -- 7 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Representative Dockery, 8 you're recognized for a question. 9 REPRESENTATIVE DOCKERY: For a series of 10 questions, Mr. Chairman? 11 CHAIRMAN KYLE: You're recognized. 12 (Representative Kallinger entered the 13 room.) 14 REPRESENTATIVE DOCKERY: 15 Representative Rubio, the -- I like the looks 16 of -- of your map. I think the way you're 17 keeping everything together, and you're trying 18 to keep counties intact. 19 Certainly my central county of Polk lends 20 itself to being grabbed by several different 21 districts, instead of keeping it intact, and 22 I'm a little concerned about that. 23 But I think that the map looks good, 24 without delving into it too much. On the 25 southeast line, there's so many different ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 17 1 colors, and because it's such a large 2 population, how many different Senate districts 3 are in that -- that confusing area? 4 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: I -- I think the 5 staff could probably blow it up for us. We're 6 going to see it. 7 It probably begins at number -- you'll be 8 able to see the different numbers there. You 9 can probably even make it a little larger, and 10 that would give you a count. 11 I hate to give you an exact number, because 12 I don't -- I know they started, but the numbers 13 jump around. 14 So you've got at least nine. 15 REPRESENTATIVE DOCKERY: Yeah. At least 16 eleven, actually. 17 Okay. From your -- each of the districts 18 we're supposed to be aiming for about 399,000; 19 is that correct? 20 What is -- what is your spread? Which 21 district went over by the most, and which 22 district went under by the most? 23 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: I don't know those 24 numbers exactly. But perhaps they're going to 25 be there. I think that the key we're shooting ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 18 1 for, if you can get -- it's a deviation 2 percentage. 3 If you can be somewhere, like, 2, 4 two-and-a-half percent, it's pretty good. And 5 if we could -- and -- and in terms of not, 6 you know, going over on one end. 7 I mean, the higher you deviate in one 8 district, the -- the less you're going to be in 9 another. 10 So I -- I think it's the percentage -- if 11 you look at the percentage of deviation, you're 12 trying to aim at something that's less than 13 5 percent. And -- and the lower the better 14 ideally. 15 And I don't believe the deviation, any of 16 the south Florida districts exceeded 17 3.5 percent. I could be wrong. But those 18 graphs should be there on the plan. 19 REPRESENTATIVE DOCKERY: Okay. So if we 20 remain under 5 percent in terms of deviation, 21 we're in good shape, Mr. Chairman? 22 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: Can I just clarify 23 that? 24 That's just my personal internal, you know, 25 looking at it. I'm not sure if that's a -- a ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 19 1 legal requirement. I think the staff would be 2 more versed in that. I -- and that's the way I 3 looked at it in terms of deviation. 4 REPRESENTATIVE DOCKERY: Well, to the 5 staff, what -- what is the highest that we can 6 deviate percentage-wise? 7 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Well, I think -- if you -- 8 if you could -- we'll have our attorney go 9 ahead and -- 10 MR. CODY: It -- it has been recognized as 11 sort of a safe harbor figure that a total 12 deviation of 10 percent, meaning the difference 13 between the most populace district and the 14 least populace district being no greater than 15 10 percent is something that the courts have 16 accepted, there have been instances where 17 they've gone as high as perhaps 6-- 13 to 18 16 percent, in special circumstances, and in 19 special cases. 20 Ten percent is generally accepted as being 21 acceptable of the courts in terms of State 22 redistricting. 23 REPRESENTATIVE DOCKERY: Okay. And one 24 last question to the presenter, Mr. Chairman? 25 CHAIRMAN KYLE: You're recognized. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 20 1 REPRESENTATIVE DOCKERY: When we were 2 traveling around the state, one comment that 3 was made was keeping communities of like 4 interests together. I would think that would 5 mean keeping coastal communities together, 6 keeping agricultural communities together, 7 keeping any other like communities. 8 To the extent possible, did you keep 9 agricultural and rural communities together in 10 this plan? 11 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: 12 Representative Dockery, I -- I'll confess to 13 you that I'm obviously not as -- as versed in 14 some of those areas in the central part of the 15 state, as I am on southeast Florida. 16 And I -- and that's why I think it's 17 important in the legislative process that 18 members from all parts of the state become 19 deeply involved in the drafting of amendments, 20 and -- and -- of -- or in the drafting of 21 bills, that because they ultimately, 22 representing those areas, understand what 23 communities of interests are. 24 I mean, again, that -- that's a term of 25 art. I mean, one person's community of ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 21 1 interest is someone else's, you know, planned 2 development. 3 And -- and so I think that that's incumbent 4 upon us who represent these areas, to put that 5 forth in our amendments and our participation 6 in this process. 7 REPRESENTATIVE DOCKERY: Thank you. 8 CHAIRMAN KYLE: And I would also note that 9 as far as the deviation goes, much like the one 10 up there, my -- mine's set up differently, I 11 don't have that part. 12 But if you look on the one on the wall, 13 they have the standard deviation and deviation 14 percent for each district that he's drawn. And 15 that's a -- this -- this program can do just 16 about everything that you need to make sure you 17 fall within the legal requirements that are 18 necessary. 19 You're recognized, Representative Ritter, 20 for a question. 21 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: Mr. Chairman, could 22 I ask one more question? 23 But I've got to go up there and do it. I 24 can't do it -- 25 CHAIRMAN KYLE: You are recognized, ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 22 1 Representative Melvin. And feel free to 2 approach. 3 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: Okay. Whatever. 4 When -- when you're looking at this long, 5 long district here, and then you look at this 6 real long squiggly little one in there, it 7 seems to me like that goes against what we 8 heard our legal folks say, that you want to try 9 to make sure people would know where you are 10 and who you -- but this blue one, there'd be no 11 way anybody would know who represented them 12 anyway. 13 And then, as I remember in Collier County 14 and those areas, it was, please don't join us 15 up with the east coast of Florida. 16 And that's exactly what I'm looking at -- 17 am I wrong, or am I colorblind? Is this all 18 one district in here? 19 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: Yes. 20 CHAIRMAN KYLE: No. There's two -- 21 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: There's 35 on the 22 east coast, and 40 on the -- to the western 23 part. 24 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: But -- but still, 25 we're doing what we -- what they asked us not ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 23 1 to do, is to make a district come all the way 2 over here. 3 And it seems to me -- I -- I like what 4 you've done in a lot of areas. But I think 5 you've just lost me in these parts. 6 Why was that little blue squiggly one all 7 over? 8 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: Well, after the 9 testimony today, clearly, I mean, it's -- it's 10 an area that's troubling you. 11 And so -- without -- I mean, my 12 recommendation, of course, to those who don't 13 like the shape of some of the districts that 14 have been drawn is that they can be changed and 15 maneuvered. 16 Like I said, this is one of a thousand ways 17 that this plan can be drawn. And not 18 everyone's going to love it. I know one person 19 that does. 20 And -- and I know 119 others that may not. 21 And -- and -- and it's incumbent upon them to 22 become involved in the process and make the 23 changes they see appropriate. And if they can 24 get 61 votes to do it, then their plan -- the 25 plan will like theirs, not like mine. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 24 1 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Representative Ritter, 2 you're recognized. 3 REPRESENTATIVE RITTER: Thank 4 you, Mr. Chair. 5 Representative Rubio, I don't -- I am not 6 familiar with the program. In fact, I asked 7 the staff to take FREDS off my computer. 8 That's how computer illiterate I am. 9 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: Great. 10 REPRESENTATIVE RITTER: So looks okay to 11 me. 12 I'm amazed that you could draw it at all. 13 But just the program -- 14 Not you particularly. 15 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: Love it. 16 REPRESENTATIVE RITTER: I was wondering, 17 does the program allow, or is there a way, to 18 find out which precincts are in each 19 particular -- 20 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: Yes. 21 REPRESENTATIVE RITTER: -- district? 22 Yes -- yes, there's -- the program does it, 23 or there's another way -- 24 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: There is a -- the 25 program allows you to see the precincts -- the ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 25 1 current precincts that are in the district. 2 Now, I understand that not all of the 3 districts -- precincts are done by the local 4 election supervisor, they could be redrawn. 5 There's going to be split districts, there'll 6 be -- there'll be probably split precincts, 7 some that'll be split into four. 8 But you'll be able to -- you can -- there's 9 a -- and obviously staff's better versed than 10 this. They'll be able to tell you how to get 11 the numbers on the screen for you. 12 REPRESENTATIVE RITTER: Thank you. 13 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: Thought that was a 15 trick question. I was ready for it. 16 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Are there any other 17 questions? 18 Representative Kosmas, you're recognized 19 for a question. 20 REPRESENTATIVE KOSMAS: It is 21 Representative Kosmas for the record. 22 I had an earlier question similar to that 23 of Representative Melvin with regard to the 24 Senate District 9, which also is sort of a 25 long -- obviously, we're all more familiar with ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 26 1 our home territories -- splits Volusia County 2 in half. 3 And I was curious as to reasoning, if there 4 was a reason for that. 5 And then I had another question, if I 6 might, Mr. Chairman. 7 CHAIRMAN KYLE: You're -- you're 8 recognized, Representative Rubio. 9 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: Well, I don't think 10 there was any particular reason why the map was 11 drawn in that shape as you see there. 12 Obviously I think that, you know, Senators and 13 Representatives from that area are going to 14 become involved in how it ultimately is going 15 to look. 16 And, like I said earlier at the beginning 17 of the presentation, this is nothing more than 18 a starting point based upon, you know, some 19 basic legal and constitutional premises. 20 And I would anticipate and hope that 21 everyone will become involved in changing 22 things of this plan. There's parts of these 23 plans they don't like, whether it's the 24 color coding or the squiggly lines, or -- or 25 precinct numbers. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 27 1 CHAIRMAN KYLE: You're recognized for a 2 follow-up question, Representative Kosmas. 3 REPRESENTATIVE KOSMAS: Actually, it's a 4 different question. 5 Does the program provide an opportunity to 6 locate, either by precinct or by address, where 7 the current incumbent would be -- where 8 incumbents live so that we could determine 9 whether there has been an effort to preserve 10 any of those districts or not? 11 CHAIRMAN KYLE: I don't think that's 12 currently on the program. But I know you could 13 put streets on this. And if you do some leg 14 work, maybe people are willing to tell you 15 where they live, you might be able to figure it 16 out. 17 But I don't think the program actually does 18 that. 19 REPRESENTATIVE KOSMAS: Thank you. 20 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Are there any more 21 questions for Representative Rubio? 22 Seeing no more questions at this point in 23 time, I'd like to thank you for being here 24 today. 25 I would encourage anyone who has any more ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 28 1 questions for Representative Rubio, to -- to 2 approach him. And I think -- 3 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: I'd urge you not to, 4 Mr. Chairman. 5 CHAIRMAN KYLE: I think he realizes that 6 this is a work in pro-- a work in -- a working 7 process, and his will be one of many plans. 8 And I'm sure he'd be open to any 9 suggestions or ideas. Just feel free to 10 approach him. If you have any other technical 11 questions on his plan, feel free to approach 12 the staff. 13 Thank you, Representative Rubio. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: Thank you. 15 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: You've given us 16 something to work with. 17 REPRESENTATIVE RUBIO: That squiggly line 18 means we're Number 1 for the Hurricanes. 19 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Well, we are waiting for 20 Representative Wallace. And I believe he is 21 down in the -- in the House Redistricting 22 Committee presenting his plan at this point in 23 time, or he should be. 24 So we will stand in informal recess briefly 25 while we wait for him to come back up. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 29 1 Thank you. 2 (Recess.) 3 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Okay. At this time we're 4 going to reconvene. I see we have 5 Representative Wallace. We must have passed 6 each other in the hallway. 7 And I would like him to step forward at 8 this point in time to present his redistricting 9 plan. 10 You're recognized, Representative Wallace. 11 REPRESENTATIVE WALLACE: Thank you, 12 Mr. Chair, members. 13 Appreciate the chance to present the Senate 14 plan for your consideration. 15 As I told the -- the House Redistricting 16 Committee, I started out drawing a 17 Hillsborough/Pinellas District, and then found 18 out that I had to submit a statewide plan, and 19 then found out that I had to do a Senate plan 20 in order to -- 21 So it's kind of been a -- an expansion of 22 the goal. 23 But what I would like to do is just kind of 24 go through some of the thought processes in 25 this plan. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 30 1 As you know, we're talking about 16 million 2 Floridians, and 40 Senate seats. So it's -- it 3 works out to about 400,000 population per 4 Senate district. 5 And that's up from about I think 325,000, 6 which was in the '90, '92 redistricting. 7 One of the things that I -- I think -- or I 8 hope you'll see in this -- this plan is I'm 9 trying to be more compact. I think compactness 10 is a -- a virtue in this instance, and one that 11 I'm trying to build around from existing Senate 12 seats. 13 And this -- this is not derived entirely 14 with no -- no backdrop. But I've used the 15 existing Senate seats, and working on the 16 population, trying to work around the -- the 17 edges, if you will, to achieve the right 18 population, and not have any limbs on it, or 19 tails, you know, the old story of the 20 gerrymandering term, and how that was derived. 21 But -- but as I think you'll see that 22 that's one of the features is that there is 23 more compactness to it. 24 In general, I think lines are better than 25 curves or squiggles. When I try to deal with ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 31 1 precision, I wear my graph paper coat, like for 2 today. 3 So -- so lines, you know, to an engineer 4 are more important than the squiggles. But 5 I -- I think, you know, where we -- where there 6 are some squiggles, we're -- I think you'll see 7 there's a -- on river lines where we're having 8 a natural boundary, where we don't have those 9 natural features to contend with, I think 10 you'll see that there's more directness of the 11 lines. 12 We're starting a process that -- in 13 engineering, we call it success of 14 approximations where we make some assumptions, 15 we look at the data, we make an educated guess, 16 and then see how that guess connects with 17 reality. And then go through that process 18 again and again and again till you reach what 19 would be the ideal solution. 20 In this case, I don't think there's going 21 to be what you would call a perfect plan, but 22 there will be hopefully an acceptable plan that 23 meets the constitutional requirements at the 24 end of this process. 25 So -- so I'm happy to be able to give a -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 32 1 a starting point here. 2 You know, as you look at it, some of the 3 data that you can get is -- and this is driven 4 by the population. 5 I'm looking at -- at the numbers of 6 population. But there's also age of the 7 voters, party registration, race information, 8 and -- and the history of the performance of 9 those districts. 10 As I mentioned to the other committee, we 11 didn't look at incumbents -- I have no idea 12 where incumbents live in this instance. So 13 it's not -- if you will, try to be tailored 14 around any personalities that currently occupy 15 seats. I think that's the strength of it. 16 You may have other opinions. 17 In -- in the area with -- that I'm dealing 18 with -- primarily, the one that I'm most 19 familiar with is Hillsborough and Pinellas. I 20 represent those areas. 21 And in Hillsborough and Pinellas, we have 22 essentially 2 million people in those counties. 23 And at five -- 400,000 per seat, that works out 24 to five seats you would expect. 25 And if you look in that area, that's what ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 33 1 you have, five -- five different seats. So 2 I think it's true to that measure of -- of 3 population and districting. 4 With that, I think I'll just stand down and 5 see if there's any -- any questions, and -- and 6 get your input at this point. 7 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Does anyone have any 8 questions for Representative Wallace? 9 Representative Dockery, you're recognized 10 for a question. 11 REPRESENTATIVE DOCKERY: Thank you, 12 Mr. Chairman. Representative Wallace, it's an 13 interesting plan. I think you've done some -- 14 some good things. It's more similar to what 15 exists today than the first plan that we saw, 16 which had more compact areas, which I liked 17 better in the first plan. 18 I have a few concerns though. 19 REPRESENTATIVE DOCKERY: During the -- 20 going around the state getting comments, a lot 21 of people said, please keep areas of common 22 interests together. 23 And the -- the one area I'm very concerned 24 about is keeping rural, agricultural 25 communities together. And whenever you start ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 34 1 inland for a district that has rural, 2 agriculture, but then you go all the way over 3 to a coast, you're picking up large amounts of 4 population, and then that representative has 5 more people in the coastal community than they 6 do in agriculture, because you have much more 7 land in agriculture without bodies. 8 And that concerns me. I'd like to see the 9 coastal communities separated from the interior 10 agriculture communities. And specifically in 11 the Manatee, Hardee, DeSoto area, that concerns 12 me. 13 And then having Glades, Henry go so far 14 east into Palm Beach also concerns me. But -- 15 so I guess that was more of a comment than a 16 question. 17 Unless I guess the question could be, is 18 there a reason you did that in those two areas? 19 CHAIRMAN KYLE: You're recognized, 20 Representative Wallace. 21 REPRESENTATIVE WALLACE: Thank you, 22 Representative Dockery. 23 Is that -- so that was District 26? 24 Which -- which are the two districts that you 25 were -- ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 35 1 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Twenty-five and 2 twenty-seven, I believe. 3 REPRESENTATIVE WALLACE: Well, I did not -- 4 this question came up at the other committee as 5 to whether I had, you know, looked over all the 6 transcripts and -- of the testimony taken 7 around the state. And I -- I must say that I 8 did not. 9 But if your concern is, you know, an area 10 of interest, agriculture versus, you know, 11 urban, what I would suggest to you is that, 12 you know, we -- we can't have -- I don't think 13 it's healthy just to have both, you know, 14 agricultural districts and -- so you might say 15 that this district was agricultural and urban 16 would be one that would -- the occupant of that 17 seat would be well aware that commerce is a 18 very important element, and they would have to 19 vote I would think to represent both 20 districts -- both constituencies well. 21 But the -- the general question you're 22 asking is, you know, how are you -- you -- you 23 devising these? 24 And I -- I tend to think that I'm looking 25 at I guess areas with common-- commonalities, ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 36 1 or not necessarily political boundaries. 2 Although in some instances, the political 3 boundaries I think helped define areas of 4 common interest. 5 But I will take that into -- that comment 6 and look at that further and see if there's a 7 way to shift that, and what that would do as, 8 you know, you move one line, then you have 9 other effects as well. 10 But I'll take those, 25 and 27 thoughts 11 into account. 12 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Representative Ritter, 13 you're recognized for a question. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RITTER: Thank you, 15 Mr. Chair. 16 Representative Wallace, I -- I think I just 17 want to get something on the record to be 18 straight with you. 19 When -- when we did go around the state, 20 Collier County was really specific about not 21 being brought in into the east coast. 22 And I just want to verify that with respect 23 to Number 24, the Broward County area that 24 you've incorporated is unpopulated. 25 I believe that the last district that would ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 37 1 be populated would be 33. That's as far west 2 as our population goes in Broward County, and 3 you've basically captured what is the 4 Everglades. 5 Is that -- is that your understanding of 6 your map? 7 REPRESENTATIVE WALLACE: I must say that if 8 you're talking -- 24, and you're talking about 9 that -- that northeast part of -- of 10 Palm Beach? 11 REPRESENTATIVE RITTER: No, Broward County, 12 sir. 13 Mr. Chair. 14 CHAIRMAN KYLE: It -- it includes 15 Palm Beach -- 16 REPRESENTATIVE RITTER: But it -- 17 CHAIRMAN KYLE: -- but she's talking about 18 Broward. 19 REPRESENTATIVE RITTER: -- this is -- about 20 Broward County, that is non -- that is 21 unpopulated Broward County. 22 Is -- is that your understanding? 23 REPRESENTATIVE WALLACE: Well, just -- I'm 24 not -- my geography there is not excellent. 25 I'll -- I'll research that further. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 38 1 But I would say generally, we are -- we're 2 looking like we're mostly in the nondeveloped 3 and Everglades area, yes. 4 REPRESENTATIVE RITTER: Thank you. 5 CHAIRMAN KYLE: And the staff can get with 6 you and give you a better breakdown of that 7 possibly with the map. 8 REPRESENTATIVE RITTER: Well, I -- I -- 9 I -- Mr. Chair, I think that's correct. I'm 10 pretty -- pretty familiar with Broward. 11 Actually, I'm very -- extremely familiar -- 12 overly familiar. 13 But I just wanted to make sure that when a 14 map -- obviously for people to look at it, that 15 people in Broward County recognize that that is 16 unpopulated Broward County. 17 You know, and you might get questions about 18 that. So for your information, that is 19 unpopulated Broward County. 20 Thank you. 21 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Thank you. 22 Are there any other questions for 23 Representative Wallace? 24 Representative Melvin, you're recognized 25 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 39 1 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: 2 Representative Wallace, looking at the 3 northwest -- or let's say the northern section, 4 it looks to me in Section -- in District -- let 5 me get back up there -- I'm sorry. 6 It's gone again. 7 You've got the light blue district that 8 covers Blountstown and others. And I'm sorry, 9 but I don't have the counties listed. 10 CHAIRMAN KYLE: It's Number 3. 11 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: It's Number 3 -- 12 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Number 3. 13 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: -- and Number 4. 14 It sure looks to me like -- I -- I like 15 what you've done basically. It looks to me 16 that you could lop some of Number 4 off, and 17 give it to 3, and move some into the -- the 18 yellow area, and make a Senator not have to 19 travel so far just to represent somebody. And 20 I think that's a big problem we've got. 21 And I think the way those county 22 populations are, that could probably be done 23 without too much of a problem. 24 But I'd love to see that. 25 CHAIRMAN KYLE: You're recognized, ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 40 1 Representative Wallace. 2 REPRESENTATIVE WALLACE: Okay. Thank you. 3 Yeah, I -- I understand what you're saying. 4 But I think what -- the problem is -- there is 5 that Leon is a population center -- or 6 you know, Tallahassee is one of the major 7 metropolitan areas of all those counties. 8 And so in some sense, you might need to 9 take portions of that for both Senate seats. 10 And the -- and -- and contrary to that, if 11 you had Leon all in one, then that area would 12 only be represented by one senator. Now it has 13 two. 14 So, I mean, that was some of the logic on 15 that. But -- but we're building around -- like 16 I said, we're building around the existing line 17 and kind of working around the edges. 18 But I'll -- I'll make -- I'll take a note 19 of that and see if there's a way to -- I mean, 20 basically you're saying that Wakulla, Leon, 21 Taylor go to the east, and then -- I see what 22 you're saying. Okay. 23 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: And then I've 24 got -- I've got one more. 25 CHAIRMAN KYLE: You're recognized for a ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 41 1 follow-up, Representative Melvin. 2 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: Down in the 3 southern part, when we had the public hearings 4 over the state, we constantly heard, please 5 don't connect east and west coasts. That 6 was -- if anything came across to me, that was 7 the one. 8 And then I see where the very last -- 9 bottom -- the Monroe County in that -- that 10 color basically just wraps around and goes 11 around. 12 And I was wondering if maybe that could be 13 straightened out. 14 And then the long blue one that starts up 15 at Jupiter, and comes all the way down to 16 Hollywood, or a little past, rather peculiar 17 District. 18 REPRESENTATIVE WALLACE: Number 30? 19 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: I have no idea. I 20 can't see. 21 That -- that one and that one. 22 REPRESENTATIVE RITTER: The green one on 23 the coast? 24 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: Thirty-eight? 25 Okay. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 42 1 REPRESENTATIVE WALLACE: Which number? 2 I mean, I'm sorry? 3 CHAIRMAN KYLE: He's talking about Senate 4 District Number 38. 5 REPRESENTATIVE GARCIA: Number 29 and 30. 6 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Right across. 7 REPRESENTATIVE WALLACE: I'm sorry? 8 REPRESENTATIVE GARCIA: Twenty-nine. 9 REPRESENTATIVE SOBEL: You talking about 10 this one? 11 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: That one, and then 12 the -- the -- the one to the right. 13 That one. 14 REPRESENTATIVE SOBEL: Looks like 1. What 15 is -- 16 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Looks like 1 and 30. 17 Thirty-one and thirty. 18 REPRESENTATIVE WALLACE: Okay. Well, 19 the -- the green one is shaded green there, 20 those are essentially all beach communities 21 along that area. And so that -- I mean, 22 I guess that's one of common interest or 23 constituency of common interest. 24 On 30 and 29, I'll take a look and see what 25 would happen if you were to, you know, just try ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 43 1 to block those off and not have the -- the 2 inter-- intertwined part there. 3 I'll take a look at that. 4 CHAIRMAN KYLE: In -- in 5 Representative Wallace's defense, I think 6 Number 40 is all of Monroe County. And if you 7 insert the water, I think that takes up almost 8 half of that purple mass. 9 So -- which is -- I would ask all of you to 10 play with this program extensively, and -- 11 and -- and work with staff to get an 12 understanding of it. Because the map looks a 13 lot different once you insert the water and 14 other natural boundaries, which you can do with 15 this program. 16 But we'll have staff get with you if you 17 want to see how to do that. 18 Are there any other questions for 19 Representative Wallace? 20 REPRESENTATIVE DOCKERY: Mr. Chair? 21 CHAIRMAN KYLE: You're recognized, 22 Representative Dockery. 23 REPRESENTATIVE DOCKERY: Thank you, 24 Mr. Chair. 25 In following up with ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 44 1 Representative Ritter's comment about -- oh, 2 which District was it -- the Collier -- 24 is 3 it, that goes over into Broward? 4 Can you -- or can staff in front of us, 5 show us what the population of -- of the 6 Broward portion of that District is so we can 7 kinds of learn how to -- 8 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Well, actually -- I think 9 it's actually in your packet that's -- 10 they've -- they've broken down all the numbers 11 in the -- not by county though. 12 REPRESENTATIVE DOCKERY: Is there any way 13 of figuring? 14 CHAIRMAN KYLE: She's going to scroll down, 15 you'll be able to see by county, by district. 16 Zero. 17 REPRESENTATIVE DOCKERY: So you have that 18 land, but not one body? 19 CHAIRMAN KYLE: -- equal. 20 REPRESENTATIVE DOCKERY: So -- so 21 theoretically, you could include that in a 22 different adjoining one. 23 Or do you need it to connect to the 24 Palm Beach portion of that? 25 CHAIRMAN KYLE: That's -- that's something ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 45 1 for Representative Wallace, I think for his 2 overall design to answer. 3 REPRESENTATIVE WALLACE: Yeah. 4 To get to that area up in Palm Beach 5 County, you need to have that contiguity. So 6 we need part of that Broward County. 7 But, you're right, if the -- if the 8 population is that sparse, then we could -- we 9 could draw that. 10 REPRESENTATIVE DOCKERY: Zero's pretty 11 sparse. 12 Is there -- 13 Mr. Chair -- 14 CHAIRMAN KYLE: You're recognized for a 15 follow-up. 16 REPRESENTATIVE DOCKERY: Thank you. 17 Mr. Chairman, is -- is there no requirement 18 that there has to be at least one body for 19 a piece of land to be included? 20 Or -- or to the proposer of the plan. 21 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Representative Wallace 22 wants to answer. 23 REPRESENTATIVE WALLACE: No, I don't think 24 that's the case at all. 25 Otherwise, there would be great portions of ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 46 1 Florida that would have no representation. 2 So the -- the plan -- if you're saying that 3 because the population -- an area doesn't have 4 a human being residing in it, that it doesn't 5 need to be part of the plan, that would take 6 out large chunks of all Florida. 7 REPRESENTATIVE DOCKERY: To respond? 8 CHAIRMAN KYLE: You're recognized for a 9 follow-up. 10 REPRESENTATIVE DOCKERY: No, that's not 11 what I'm saying. 12 What I'm saying is if you -- if you needed 13 to include it as a connector, there probably 14 should be a requirement that it include at 15 least one voter in there, or some minimal 16 amount of voter. 17 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Well, I -- 18 REPRESENTATIVE WALLACE: Well, I think 19 then we would -- no matter who had that area, 20 you'd have the same problem. And I don't think 21 we can ask people to move. 22 If I'm -- maybe I'm not understanding 23 your -- 24 REPRESENTATIVE DOCKERY: I'll get with you 25 later. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 47 1 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Yeah. 2 I think Representative Wallace's point is 3 just that someone could move there, and the 4 lines have to be drawn with land mass. And so 5 no one's there, they still need to be included 6 in the district. 7 Are there any other questions for 8 Representative Wallace? 9 Seeing no further questions, I'd like to 10 thank you, Representative Wallace, and it 11 sounds like you're very open to the people's 12 suggestions. 13 And I would encourage any one of you who 14 has any further comments for 15 Representative Wallace to get with him after 16 the meeting, or to create your own plan. 17 And thank you for being here. 18 REPRESENTATIVE WALLACE: Well, thank you, 19 Mr. -- we have pride of authorship, but that 20 doesn't mean we're not open to suggestions 21 that'll improve this and make it a better 22 product. 23 Thank you very much. 24 CHAIRMAN KYLE: So you're willing to share. 25 REPRESENTATIVE WALLACE: Yes. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 48 1 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: May I ask 2 Mr. Wallace a question, please? 3 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Yes, you may. You're 4 recognized, Representative -- 5 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: Are you going to 6 have your final version of what we did and 7 didn't do in the appropriations bill by what 8 time this afternoon, so we can -- 9 REPRESENTATIVE WALLACE: It might be early 10 this -- early tomorrow morning. But we're 11 working on it. 12 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: Please let us know 13 when it's ready. 14 CHAIRMAN KYLE: That concludes our 15 business. 16 I -- Representative Kosmas, you're 17 recognized. 18 REPRESENTATIVE KOSMAS: Thank you, 19 Mr. Chairman. 20 A question with regard to process. 21 As I understood Representative Byrd's 22 comments at our last meeting, it was, if you 23 wanted to submit a plan, it had to be a 24 statewide plan. I believe that's correct. 25 But then I heard Mr. Rubio say, if you ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 49 1 don't like something, you can offer an 2 amendment. 3 Is that a process that's available to us 4 to -- 5 CHAIRMAN KYLE: It's -- 6 REPRESENTATIVE KOSMAS: -- amend his plan 7 and -- 8 CHAIRMAN KYLE: It's -- it's like any bill, 9 as it moves through the process, you can amend 10 it. But if you amend a plan, you need to draw 11 a statewide plan as well, because any change 12 you make will affect the rest of the districts 13 throughout the state. But -- 14 REPRESENTATIVE KOSMAS: Any amendment would 15 automatically have the effect of redrawing 16 the -- 17 CHAIRMAN KYLE: Basically. But it doesn't 18 mean you couldn't make a small change, and have 19 most of it the same. And -- but any help you 20 need with -- with something like that, I'm sure 21 staff would be willing to work with you. 22 Once again, I'd like to thank everybody for 23 being here. That concludes our business. 24 I would ask that you -- you explore the 25 FREDS program. If you need any additional ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 50 1 help, to get it -- with the members as -- with 2 staff as well. 3 Any new plan that's filed will be put on 4 the website. It can be downloaded and imported 5 into FREDS. So that goes to the public as 6 well. You can use the FREDS program if you're 7 looking at a university or library, download a 8 plan, submit it to look at it, and to break it 9 down for your -- your own needs -- or -- or -- 10 or wants or desires to see how it's moving. 11 And it's fairly easy. I'm not the most 12 computer literate guy in the world, and I did 13 it. I'm actually not using a disc, or using 14 the plans, I downloaded it from the web. And 15 so it's not that difficult. I wanted to make 16 sure it was easy. 17 And with that, Representative Kallinger 18 moves we rise. 19 Thank you. 20 REPRESENTATIVE MELVIN: Are you trying to 21 tell us, if you can do it, anybody can, is 22 that -- 23 CHAIRMAN KYLE: If I can do it, anybody 24 can. 25 Thank you. ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 51 1 (The (House) Senate Redistricing Committee 2 meeting was concluded at 1:59 p.m.) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC. 52 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 3 4 5 STATE OF FLORIDA: 6 COUNTY OF LEON: 7 I, LAURIE L. GILBERT, do hereby certify that 8 the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the 9 time and place therein designated; that my shorthand 10 notes were thereafter translated; and the foregoing 11 pages numbered 1 through 51 are a true and correct 12 record of the aforesaid proceedings. 13 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, 14 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, 15 nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, 16 or financially interested in the foregoing action. 17 DATED THIS 7TH day of DECEMBER, 2001. 18 19 20 21 22 23 LAURIE L. GILBERT, RPR, CCR, CRR, RMR 24 100 Salem Court Tallahassee, Florida 32301 25 850/878-2221 ACCURATE STENOTYPE REPORTERS, INC.

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